An Interview with Harry Whitney.
A round pen advocate explains the benefits - and the dangers - of this popular training method.

We have several goals for THE WHOLE HORSE JOURNAL. Two, in particular, relate to training methods. First, we want to promote non-violent horse training techniques. Second, we want to expose those methods which can be damaging.

Oddly enough, we have felt we could cover various aspects of the popular "round pen" style of training in both categories. Round pen work has the potential to be a valuable part of non-violent horse training, especially as a forum where a horse is given an opportunity to improve his balance and increase his understanding of his handler's requests, unencumbered by a rider's weight. Without a clear and reasonable objective and a sensitive handler, however, round penning can be counter-productive at best, and quite damaging to the horse's body and mind in the worst cases.

I have been troubled by the mixed bag of results from round pen techniques for several years. There is no doubt that most of the trainers teaching these programs are very skilled. The standard clinician generally takes a hysterical, unridden horse and "tames" it. While speaking a cryptic and intriguing cowboy patter, he turns the horse into a seemingly compliant mount during an intense, hours-long training session.

Unless you look closely at the horses, these systems seem divine. Horses transform from unmanagable, whirling dervishes into obedient, quiet mounts. Unfortunately, there are quite a few horses and owners which the process does not improve. Since my personal practice often involves helping horses in physical and emotional distress, I have seen more than a few drop-outs from these programs. In these cases, after a great deal of physical hazing and psychological pressure, the horse is left frightened, shut down, or extremely angry, and often physically injured. The animal is labeled as untrainable or "not worth the time". The owners who question the process are often hazed and pressured as well. I have left several of these clinics because I couldn't bear to watch.

Recently, though, I met a horseman who uses the round pen as a training tool with a greater awareness of its potential for miracles and disaster. Harry Whitney is a 40-year-old clinician from Ottawa, Kansas. Armed with the skills of a working cowboy as well as specialized techniques for training stunt and trick horses, he is currently teaching programs around the country which include ground and riding work in a round pen.

I found Whitney's program to be significantly different from that of many round pen clinicians. First and foremost, the horses were not allowed to gallop endless laps of the round pen. Rarely did one even break a sweat from its work or become short of breath. Second, Whitney frequently backs off his training pressure, rewarding the horse with vibrant, clear verbal praise and long, firm massage strokes.

I asked Whitney for an interview and was very pleased to get an honest assessment of the benefits and dangers of round pen work from such a capable horseman. Here, then, is our discussion. - Diana Thompson

How long have you used the round pen as a horse training tool, and what do you want it to achieve?

I began in 1986. I think the purpose of any work, especially of ground work, is to get the horse mentally operating with the human. So often you see horses whose feet are headed one way and their brains are somewhere else. Round penning done properly goes through the horse's brain to control and direct his body.

It has been my experience that taking a horse away from his home and then further isolating him from other horses in a round pen creates a lot of stress for that horse.

Yes, that's true. I put pressure on the horse to see where he is motivated to be. Does he want to leave the pen to be with another horse? Does he want to leave the pen to escape the human? I want him to look to me for guidance. If he is motivated to be somewhere else - if his brain and feet want to be somewhere else besides with me - then we can't work together. I have to create a bigger motivation inside the pen to get his brain back to his feet in the pen.

I'm not sure I understand. When you say "bring his brain back to his feet", do you mean bring his mental focus back to his body - get them operating in the same place?

Yes, that's correct. A horse's feet are always working to be where his brain is - where his thoughts are. So, if his mental focus is not in the pen where his feet are, he can't work with you or take your direction in a calm and confident manner.

You use a Hula Hoop and plastic streamers tied to the end of a stick to make movement and noise, drawing the horse's attention, right?

Yes. I have to create enough pressure inside the pen to get his attention back to me so I can direct his body. If a noise outside the pen, a pile of manure, or green grass at the side of the arena is of more interest to that horse than I am, then I better turn up the intensity of my pressure. The trick is, I have to apply that pressure without causing him to strictly flee.

This is one of the problems I have had with these methods. Many times I have seen trainers apply pressure which does make the horse run and panic. I've seen horses run and smash into the walls; some even attempt to jump the fence. Even when they comply, these horses don't seem to understand anything. They seem to submit out of fear and fatigue.

I hadn't seen the type of troubles you are talking about until I started getting out to other parts of the country. Every so often I'll get a horse which someone says has been round penned and the horse will come into the pen and just start to run and run. This horse has no desire to work with a human, and he's just fleeing the situation. What I call the "flee factor" is way up.

In these cases, the person responsible was confused about the value of a round pen. He looked at it as a place to send a horse out to run and make him work when he has done the wrong thing.

Unfortunately, when the horse has done what the person perceives as the wrong thing it is because he has already mentally left. His brain was already not with that person. So then the person sends him out and chases him around in circles, which tells him that fleeing the human is the correct thing and further hinders his thinking. When you send a horse out to go and keep going, he thinks his job is to go, and he actually shuts you out. This doesn't engage his mind, which is what I want. YOu can see the same thing, on a long line. When a horse goes out to the end of the line and goes running around, dragging the person, that horse has already left mentally. The line just keeps him from physically leaving.

Well, how do you do things differently?

When it is obvious to me that the horse is looking for a place to flee or run to, I ask him for transition. I ask him to go slower or faster within a gait, or move from one gait to another. I might ask him to turn or stop. I don't let him just go around and around. The transitions start to engage his mind. I rarely let a horse go around the pen more than once or twice without a transition to engage him mentally.

I also never use the round pen as a punishment. If the horse gives us something we don't desire some trainers send them away and make them run. I don't care if the horse ever runs or gets tired.

There is a huge difference in the horse finding himself under pressure because of a response and us viewing it as punishment. If the horse wheels and kicks he should instantly be put under pressure right when he kicks. You might want to shake the plastic on the stick until the horse seeks another option, like moving his hindquarters away from you instead of toward you. You don't punish the horse by making him take several laps around the pen - that serves no purpose. The horse needs to know that the pressure was a direct result of his response - that's all.

The point is, after you apply the pressure, he might leave and run around the pen. That may be a choice he makes but that is not the objective of your pressure. Your pressure was to tell him that kicking was not OK - not to send him around the pen. Think about what happens when a horse walking into an electric fence - it zaps him. The fence doesn't come to him, or punish him by zapping him four more times after he leaves. Too often people get the "P" words mixed up: pressure and punishment. There's all the difference in the world from the horse's point of view.

I really object to seeing horses in some of these situations fatigued and confused into sort of a dull compliance. Due to the length of the process and its intensity, the horses often seem to become hypnotized - it's as if they have lost their spirit.

I've seen those horses. In his book, True Unity, Tom Dorrance tries to get people to see three elements of horses which need to be addressed: the mental, physical, and spirit. If there is not a mental understanding and physical comfort, there is trouble with the spirit. I use the word anxiety a lot to describe this trouble within the spirit.

The average public doesn't see the difference between a horse who does his work with resentment and one who does his work with a smile on his face. To me that is the key between a horse trainer and someone who is really a horseman. It's not enough to get a horse to do something if he still has a little rebellion in him or he's shut down and going through the motions like a robot. A true horseman sees deeper into that horse and sees the quality of his spirit.

I think part of the attraction of this type of work for inexperienced horse owners is the control factor. They see the horse quiet, obedient, and under control; they do not see when the horse loses his spirit or becomes sullen. How do you avoid this?

When people get so wrapped up in an exercise - making a horse do something instead of understanding what that exercise is supposed to accomplish - they get into trouble. I look for the whole horse to relax mentally and physically, to lower his anxieties, so I can ask him to do things without him fleeing.

I don't want people to focus on accomplishing goals, I want them to watch the horse, watch his body to know if he is relaxed and working with them. There are some actions to watch for to help you know whether your horse is truly focused and yielding to you. First of all, get the horse to look at you, focus visually on you. Then you might try to get his front feet headed forward toward you. Look for the hindquarters to yield. If a horse is in a defensive stance, he won't yield his hindquarters. The horse who won't turn and look at you is braced in exactly the same way as the horse who decides to run right through the bit when you are on him.

How can the average horse owner discern between a trainer using the round pen in a useful way and one who is damaging the horse?

I struggle with explaining this because to me it is so obvious. There are people out there using a round pen who will actually tell you to get the horse tired, to "get his lungs screaming at his brain to stop". Well, let me tell you, the brain is ready to stop long before the lungs start screaming.

The energy level in a horse should have nothing to do with his attentiveness and his ability to respond. He does not have to be - and should not be - tired in order to respect us and respond to us. For instance, take a class of fourth graders. Coop them up for four hours, turn them loose and they will probably go ballistic. Turn on a good video or have a teacher present them with something to do and that same group will be quiet and focused. Quality of attention has nothing to do with high or low energy levels.

What actions should a person see when a trainer knows how to get a horse to focus? When the horse wants to flee the situation, the person working in the pen should direct the horse so that he moves in a progressively more calm manner. When the horse gives a response the trainer should say "thank you" and back off on the pressure.

Ask yourself - is the horse allowed to make transitions up and down in gait, or is he just made to go? If the horse just runs, he goes into automatic pilot and has very little ability to work with the human. Another sign of trouble is resentment, like when the horse will respond to a cue but is still pinning his ears or wringing his tail, or kicking at the trainer.

The process of getting the horse to turn his head and directly look, almost fixate on you, for long period of time seems unnatural, almost hypnotic to me. What is your viewpoint on this?

It is not the position of the horse's head which matters; it is where his brain is. In some cases, for the horse to let go of the rest of the world and be here working with me, I may need his head to be lined up looking at me. I may need that intense focus for a while. Once I have the horse working with me, he doesn't have to directly lookat me to be with me.

In today's clinic, I saw you establish what looked like a working order with a young mare, a hierarchy which made you the leader and the mare the follower. I didn't see a partnership or friendship established, although you did pet her frequently and verbally praised her.

There is always a leader and a follower within a group of horses. If I as a human am going to operate with a horse, I better understand how the horse operates. If all I want is a friend, then it doesn't matter where I stand with the horse. But if I want that horse to carry me someplace or to load in a trailer because I want to go somewhere, then I need to be the leader. So many people are willing to have a friend relationship with a horse until they go to get into the trailer and there is no leader. You can't wait until that moment to establish your leadership.

Few people can find that balance of being the leader and having the horse as a friend. I like my horse to think of me as a friend and want to be with me, but at the same time, he never calls the shots; I call the shots. He doesn't invade my space and he is not going to knock me down to get me to do something.

I find physical problems in a horse, pinched nerves, chronically tight and painful muscles, often interfere with his ability to focus and perform well. What is your view on this?

There are physical problems you cannot fix mentally. If a horse has a pinched nerve he can relax as much as he wants and not let go of it. Anything you can do physically to make your horse more comfortable - massage, accupuncture, chiropractic care - do it.

I do think that the biggest factor in physical tension in the body is mental, however. When a horse lets go of his mental anxiety, he physically lets go of most of the troubles in his body. Injuries can happen, but I believe the tension often begins with mental misunderstandings, fear and confusion. If a horse is not relaxed, is not mentally understanding and moving his feet properly, his body is going to rip apart quicker. In contrast, it's hard to pull a relaxed muscle.

Harry, thank you so much for being open enough to discuss some of these issues. I can see you have found your niche with horses and helping the people who want to learn about them.